From Cost Center to Growth Engine: Brandon Carson, Chief Learning Officer @ Docebo

In this episode of Catalysts, I sit down with Brandon Carson, Chief Learning Officer at Docebo, to explore the future of learning and development in a world reshaped by AI, transformation, and trust.

Brandon is a globally recognized L&D leader and the author of Learning in the Age of Immediacy and L&D’s Playbook for the Digital Age. He’s led learning strategy at Walmart, Starbucks, and now Docebo—and his vision for the next decade of work is bold, clear, and deeply human.

We talk about:

• The three tectonic shifts that have redefined L&D since the 1970s
• Why COVID—not AI—was the real catalyst for L&D’s elevation
• The shift from scalable efficiency to scalable learning
• How HR and L&D can restore workforce trust in the age of AI
• What it takes to lead talent development with empathy and strategy
• Brandon’s advice for emerging leaders—and the one skill he calls your “back pocket differentiator”

This episode is a roadmap for any L&D professional looking to lead boldly, scale human potential, and architect the future of work.

Connect with Brandon on LinkedIn »

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Transcript

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welcome back to Catalysts, the leaders shaping the future of learning and growth. I'm your host, Jacob Ratliff, and this is the show where we spotlight the bold thinkers, builders, and leaders who aren't just responding to change in our industry. They're the ones driving it. And today I'm thrilled to be joined by Brandon Carson, who is the chief learning officer at Docebo. Brandon is a globally recognized voice in learning strategy and has led at Starbucks and Walmart as well as DeChevo. And he's the author of Learning in the Age of Immediacy and LND's playbook for the digital age, both from ATD Press. In this episode, we're going to explore what it means to lead in a digital world and how Brandon sees the future of work. leadership and growth. Brandon, thank you so much for joining me here today. I'm really excited for our conversation. It's great to be here, Jacob. I'm looking forward to it. Thank you. And so I always love diving in with the million dollar question, uh which is, you've led learning at global brands. I mentioned Starbucks, Walmart, and now Decebo. Looking ahead, what do you think will define the next era of learning and growth? No, it's a great question and timely too. It's a discussion we all need to be having because we are kind of at the precipice, if you will, of being able to architect what that next decade is going to hold for us. But when I look across, because I've been doing this for 25 years, I look across and I see three tectonic shifts in our operating model as a corporate function since we've, you know, since the seventies, if you think about it. The first shift was around. compliance and competency as an operating model. So then our primary role was to optimize human capability for established industrial and organizational processes. was kind of the end of the manufacturing era operating model of work, if you think about it. But our primary mandate was to make humans better at work as it was designed. And it focused heavily on compliance, safety, and technical skills. This era was strategically important though for scaling companies into the global juggernauts they became. We had much more regulatory oversight, uh much more complexity was introduced into the work due to the creation of the global supply chain. So the emphasis at that time was just enhancing the technical skills of employees. And it's kind of funny. the vocational school model was kind of the construct for L and D at the time. And, what was lacking during that era, if you will, was engagement. There was a lack of engagement and any individualized approach to learning. was almost like, you you went to school to learn how to make widgets. You know, that was the whole idea of repeatable tasks and processes and stuff like that. And then we trained you to do that when you came to work. So, but the second shift is what I call the scalable efficiency operating model for L and D. And so that was from like the nineties to the 2010s. And we transitioned into an operating model heavily focused on cost efficiency, scalability, and measurable productivity gains. And then we became often buried in human resources. And with a primary objective of making humans more productive and efficient. And that's where I get that term scalable efficiency, which comes from John Hagel, who was a futurist at Deloitte. And he talked about the work operating model of scalable efficiency. And that's what L and D transitioned to in the nineties to the 2010s. The interesting thing is that's when we started to adopt technology and particularly e-learning. And learning management systems. remember back in that era, I was on the team that implemented the first LMS and the first e-learning course at Intel. And it was quite heady times, know, the.com boom was happening. was kind of like now in a way, but I don't think it's at the same scale, but it was, it was, we felt like we were kind of blazing a new frontier back then. And. But really what was driving everything we were doing then was cost efficiency and scalability. Again, rather than focusing on or enhancing the learner experience. so in the nineties, we witnessed the advent of CBT computer-based training evolving into e-learning. And what we were promising the business was a more cost efficient way to deliver training at scale. I remember working with tech companies in the Valley. During the.com boom where they were like, wait, we can put all of our training online. Let's just get it online so that we can, you know, have the scale of getting everyone trained. Right. And so the rise of the learning management system was a real big advancement. You know, we tried to have standardization around it with AICC, the aviation industry, CBT committee, which the colleague of mine, Tom King helped architect. which evolved into SCORM, the Shareable Content Object Reference Model. We were trying to get standards, kind of like what we did around the internet, right? We formulated standards around the HTTP protocol and all the internet protocols so that we could drive growth and scalability, right? And we tried that with learning. That's what gave us the learning management system. Came from, you know, the traditional university model. But it facilitated digital delivery and tracking of employee learning, which was huge. I mean, that was big. But in all of that, the pursuit of efficiency often came at the cost for adaptability. uh we did this one size fits all kind of e-learning model. ah So the content was standardized for scalability without accounting for the individual needs. And so The approach was efficient in delivery, but it resulted in kind of static or stifled learning material and, you know, didn't foster agility, right, at all. So as a practice propagating that one size fits all, you know, it enabled mass delivery. not saying it was all bad, but a significant portion of our investments during this time failed to clearly demonstrate business impact. And that's, that drove a credibility problem for us. And moved us into that sort of persistent costs and our burden, you know, during, during that era. So the, the consistent drive for scalable efficiency came at the cost of innovation and L and D in a lot of ways. I mean, even the thought of instructor led training suffered from the lack of efficiency. don't know how many conversations I had with people like, yeah, we have to move away from classroom training because it just costs so much. Right. And so I think that that time, that era. You know, we'll be looked back as a, be looked back upon as a paradox for the practice because we consistently complained about getting a seat at the right table. You know, we've heard that a lot in our, in the corporate world where the decisions were being made about business strategy. And too often we were not at that table. Instead, we got to a point of diminishing returns as a practice because our primary operating model was seen as efficiency and cost out. And so that discouraged us from experimenting and being adaptable. And candidly, that's been a big challenge for the majority of my career in this and a lot of us, right? Is how do we move away from that repeatable process model and meet the worker at their true moment of need? Um, and so we just became less credible during that era and less useful for driving real tangible business value. And then, and a lot of people think the catalyst has been AI to take us into this third shift. Candidly, the catalyst was COVID. And so during COVID, a lot of leaders stood up and they recognized the need for the function that builds capability and is focused on the people part of the job. So not only did we get invited to the table, at that point, we became the table. And so this third shift is what I call the move to the scalable learning operating model. And this shift is not all about technology because that kind of takes a lot of the oxygen out of the room. Now it's more about wholesale transformation and, and that's what AI is, is giving us. That's the gift AI is providing to L and D. But it's also ushering in the single largest job transformation in human history. We're right kind of at the beginning of that. So this is a shift that marks a profound elevation of L and D from a support function to a strategic imperative for a business. And in this shift, we focus on not making humans better at work, but we focus on making work better for humans. And this is where we need to strategically integrate human performance with the capabilities of AI. And so although COVID kind of shifted the conversation away from that scalable efficiency model, Because conversations in HR and L &D at the time were about joy and well-being and meaningful work and burnout and all these things that radically changed that during a scalable efficiency era was not a part of the conversation. And then you add to that artificial intelligence. And so although AI is driving that, the most critical driver is really Not AI, it is COVID. And so many CEOs at that time looked around and they saw how their HR and L &D functions strategically architected the distributed work operating model in weeks instead of months. I can guarantee you in February of 2020, there's not a CEO out there that probably would say they felt comfortable in their entire workforce moving to a distributed model really quickly. And that's where HR and L &D showed up really well. is during that period so that we strategically orchestrated that or architected that work operating model. And the fact that we helped drive business continuity during that global pandemic, I don't know that we stop often enough and give ourselves, know, there was a remarkable feat, let's put it that way. And we were still operating under that scalable efficiency. Operating model when that happened and we had to I mean I was at an airline when that happened and we had to re-architect really quickly almost everything we we did and candidly in today's world of return to office and the kind of oppression of CEOs wanting you back in the office a lot of CEOs are not giving us the recognition of we kept business continuity going during a global pandemic where millions of people died and where a lot of anxiety and all that came from that. So it's not that we need slaps on the back, but we need uh some understanding that we stood up during that time and actually achieved a really remarkable feat. But we cannot underestimate that of all the functions across the enterprise, HR and L &D rose to that occasion. So now that the elevation of L and D to a strategic function has prepared us to take on a new role uh as AI propagates across the enterprise, uh you're seeing more leaders, especially CEOs and C-suite leaders, recognizing that human capital is a primary driver of their competitive advantage. so thinking back to that first shift I talked about, You know, seventies, eighties, then the second shift nineties to the 2010s. Now this third shift, right. We are undergoing we L and D is increasingly recognized as a growth engine rather than a cost center. Now, many of us are still sort of in a hybrid model, trying to like, you know, wrench our way out of that cost center operating model construct, but we have more and more decision makers in organizations recognizing. that in this era of rapid change, the diminishing returns of scalable efficiency are no longer sustainable. so adaptability, innovation, and continuous learning are those critical differentiators for sustained growth and competitive edge. And so that's scalable learning. And you can see it in examples like Microsoft. So Satya Nadella, who took over as CEO in 2014, took Microsoft on a journey from their know-it-all culture what he called the know-it-all culture to becoming a learn-it-all culture. And you can see the returns and the results of all of the transition from scalable efficiency to scalable learning that they've done. mean, their stock is, since Satya's taken over, has increased a thousand percent and they are one of the most valuable companies in the world. And so... You can see that, you know, that workforce needed to be able to learn faster at scale. And he enabled that one of those enabling devices that he brought forward was, uh, you know, a more assertive effort at investing in their corporate learning function. so, um, you know, the key now for L and D and this, in this scalable learning era is really more focusing on. How do you support employees in steering their careers in their development? How do you build trust and empowerment? How do you create an overarching employee experience? And so we are rethinking our role now from content production and delivery to facilitating learning through action and on the job experiences and those kinds of things. So now we're a center of excellence instead of just that cost center in a lot of ways. And so. We have a heightened visibility, but now we have heightened accountability and responsibility. But we know now that so many of us are extracting evidence of business value from data and bringing that forward. we're, again, not just looking for a seat at the table, but in a lot of situations, we are the table. So it's exciting to just go through these three shifts. And I think the next decade, the next five years, candidly, for L &D is going to be much more transformational than the last 50. Absolutely. Thank you. yeah, definitely seeing the shift from kind of order takers pair of hands role that the LND tends to play, has tended to play in the past to really that strategic business partner uh model. And so Looking forward, what bold ideas or innovations are you most energized by right now? Especially when it comes to this intersection of tech and learning. Yeah. You know, we have a great, I mean, it's a Renaissance period. think the scalable learning era, I think is a Renaissance for not only L and D and HR as functions, but for business and work. Um, I see a great opportunity in the near future for us to look at productizing HR and L and D. And I see that work on kind of two fronts, top down and bottom up. So we need to drive. AI literacy across the enterprise at every company. So companies need a common narrative around their philosophy of AI. And this needs to be done with urgency. because, you know, the half-life, I what is an AI generation? Six months maybe now. So it's like, we need to move faster than we are. um While at the same time that you're seeing all of this firehose of information about AI, There is a record deficit when it comes to workforce trust in companies and leaders. It's at an all time low right now since it's been measured. And so we have a pandemic of anxiety in the workforce. People are worried about what AI may do to their jobs and they do not trust their company and or their leadership that they're telling them the truth. Additionally, they're being firehosed with information from so many sources nowadays that it's even hard to tell what the truth is versus what is the misinformation. So my belief is that HR and L &D both have a great opportunity right now to be the orchestrators of restoring trust and credibility by being more transparent themselves, but also urging the company's leaders to be more transparent. Candidly right now, there's too many CHROs and C-level leaders that are literally lying about the impact of AI on the workforce. And it could be because they don't know, or it could be they do know and they are lying to us. And the primary avenue to rebuilding trust is to have authentic conversations about the impact of AI on the work and the workforce. And our leaders need to start telling the truth. If they don't know, they need to say that. If they do know, they need to tell us what that is. And this is what I'm most excited about with the innovations, if you think of this as innovation, for HR and L &D Next, is to come together and work on restoring the trust of not just the workforce, but also their customers. Because you see in the news all of these reasons that companies are laying people off. with trust at the lowest deficit it's ever been, people don't believe them. And customers will hear that as well. And customers will make choices based on what they believe. And so I think it's in all of our best interests in the corporate world to have more forthright and authentic conversations with both the workforce and our customers. Absolutely. yes, all of the different sources, like you said, kind of this fire hose of information, yeah, it's overwhelming. then if you're getting mixed signals from, or even downright lies from the organizational leadership itself, it's not a great recipe. Right. Right. And I would encourage everyone to just look up, because you can find this on Google or just on a search, the Edelman Trust Factor Report for 2024. And I think they may have 2025s out because that gives you insight, deeper insight into what people are thinking. It's not just the workforce not trusting companies. There's a low trust factor in government right now as well. So in a lot of this is just done. naturally because of this fire hose of stuff coming at people. And so I think it's a, you you talk about innovation in that question. I think it's really an area for us to focus more on and how we communicate. Absolutely. um So I want to shift a little bit. We've talked generally around the industry, where it's been, where it's heading. uh But zooming in and focusing on yourself a little bit, I'm curious, across your roles and as the L &D landscape has evolved, what's changed most about how you personally approach leadership and talent development? Yeah, it's a great question. Um, it's funny. I've never, you know, in all the years I've been doing this and I have led leadership development efforts at several companies I've been at and, or been a part of it. I've modeled my leadership principles, not really based on leadership development I've had, but based on leaders that I've actually had throughout my career. And, and I think we all. do that to some regard, we definitely all experience good and bad leaders. And the old adage is true. We leave bosses more than we leave jobs. I've left a job I loved because of a boss I couldn't navigate. And that was one of the lowest points in my career where I loved the company, loved the job, but I didn't see a path through this leader. uh But my principles include, as a leader, hiring the best talent that's mostly smarter than myself, establishing our focus areas and our go-gets in as clear a way as I can, and then get out of their way and let them have the autonomy and the responsibility and the accountability, and be clear about those things. Be clear about... Autonomy is not just letting someone go do whatever they think they should do. It's being really clear about the accountability and responsibility that they have to themselves and to the company and to what we need to achieve. And then get out of the way and let them do that and be there to support them along the way. Those are the best leaders I've had that have done that. And one of them was my leader at Delta Airlines, my first leader there, where it was an interesting situation where I did my first interview with him in person. Uh, and it was a harried situation. He was running behind. He was late. Uh, think 10 minutes late to the meeting, but it was a 30 minute interview. don't know what's happened with these interviews, but you got it. You know, you have 30 minute interviews, right? Which is hardly any time to get to know someone. Right. And so we're in there and he hadn't read the resume, you know, all these kinds of things, right. That don't lead you to having a good discussion as a. in an interview process. And so I left there thinking, wow, that's like the last person on earth I'd want to work for. Right. And, but then I came home and my partner was like, she's like, don't give up on that. Ask for another interview with him because there was something there that seemed kind of interesting about the role. And so I asked for another interview and it was an entirely different experience. It was on the phone. It wasn't in person, but he came across as much more human. much more engaged, leaning in, right? Because that was a moment in time during that first interview, rough day, whatever it was, know, lots of things going on and didn't want to cancel because, you I traveled over there and stuff like that. So it's really interesting. And literally I accepted the job based on that last, that second interview and he became the one of the best bosses I've ever had. Right. And so You know, you've got to really, if it's something you're interested in and you see something there, you know, ask for that because interviews are two way. They're not just one way you're interviewing them. They're interviewing you. Right. Uh, but probe and, if you want to ask for another call, do it right. Because I loved that job, uh, and loved him as a boss. So. Yeah. And one thing that was important for him, and this is what I would say that all leaders should be, especially in this era. is talent developers. And he was that. He was clear and kind of hard on the questioning, but he was there to develop your capabilities to not only get, be good in that job and be successful in that job, but what were your aspirations? He cared enough to be asking, right? And to be guiding. And uh so I think leaders as talent developers and as coaches are, that's probably where the unlock. happens for their team members in their direct reports. uh I've had one leader long after I've stopped working with her is still uh developing me funny enough. And she's actually the reason I'm in this job. I haven't worked with her in over a decade. And she's the reason that I'm in this job because she brought this forward to me. I wasn't looking for another job. She said, you need to look at this spec for this role at this company. She's like, they're forward thinking, you know, all these things, right. And, and it ended up working out. So she's never stopped working for me as a developer, even though I don't talent developer, right. Even though I don't work with her anymore and come to find out she's had six other people that have all become chief learning officers. that used to report to her in, different roles and stuff. And so we all had a meetup last year. All six of us, and we all agreed that we've achieved what we did because she was a developer of us. And we don't get these bosses often. And when we do, we need to leverage that experience that they're giving us and their intention that they're giving us. So that's a legacy I want to leave behind as a leader, like watching those I've developed reach new heights and achieve their dreams. And just because they may not report to you anymore or work with you doesn't mean you can't continue to develop them. Yeah, this is something I do a lot in my work specifically, uh working with managers to help them develop the skills they need to develop their own team members. And really in a lot of ways acting as a career coach. And I've been met with some resistance in the past for managers who kind of initially perceive it as, this is just another thing they have to do, another thing to add to their plate. And they don't initially see the value in it. um And I know what I've told them in the past and how I've worked with them in the past through that, but I'm curious, what would you say to that manager who kind of rolls their eyes and say, you want me to be a career coach too on top of everything else? Well, know, candidly, we're not born leaders. I mean, it is a skill. And so many of us are not developed as leaders because candidly, a lot of times you're seen as someone who does the job well by your boss. It makes their life a little easier. So they promote you, you know, because you either in a lot of it, a lot of times, cause you look like them or they like you for whatever reasons. Right. And so we've. We spend billions across corporations doing leadership development, formal leadership development every year, but we're not seeing the return on that. And what we need to do, and that's the challenge. And we've seen a lot of this flattening over the last year of hierarchical structures, tech companies, especially going, we want to expand number of direct reports and span of control and all of that. That does not pay off for you in the long run because So many leaders are now in the player coach model where they're actually doing some of the work and then expected to lead teams in larger teams. And that makes it very challenging. So to that point, when that person's saying that, this is another thing I have to do, it doesn't really help us when we talk about these other things, this era of scalable learning, when we really have a demographic, especially Gen Z and millennial demographics, who expect more from work as it applies to their opportunity and their growth. And the, the real catalyst for opportunity and growth in an organization is your boss, your manager. And if that person doesn't have the time and ability to do it, to help develop your capabilities and to understand you deeply and recognize where your strengths and opportunities are, then that's going to cause a deficit. And so like, if you look at CEO imperatives for 2025, the number one imperative, as you would expect, is along the lines of value creation and profitability and that kind of stuff. But the number two imperative is to develop existing talent. And so if you have a CEO who's laying their head on the pillow every night, not worrying about development of their workforce, then that's a great thing for your company, but that means that your leaders intentionally are developing talent, succession planning, building bench strength for the talent. And I would ask that CEO to look down a few layers and make sure that's actually happening because it's going to get harder and harder for companies to go buy the talent. COVID, during the COVID era, it was not real difficult. People were jumping and leaving jobs. Uh, so wasn't difficult to buy the talent. on the marketplace, it's going to get more difficult to do that. Um, and, relying just on automation or AI to sort of fill those gaps is not going to help long-term. So I think we do have a challenge there in that we're flattening hierarchy, which there could be good and bad about that, but we're not necessarily shifting the balance of the work so that I remember talking, this was one of my prior roles. I was talking to the president of the company. We were sourcing some new talent for his team. And I actually just asked him in the conversation, I said, you know, how do you, as a leader, you know, you're leading a pretty complex organization. Lots of people are under your, you know, auspice. How do you organize your day? You know, and his response was by thirds, right? So, you know, a third of his day is spent on business challenges and problems that he needs to solve, needs to focus on strategy. A third of the person, a third of the day is on his team and what they need from him as their leader. And then the other third is what he needs from his leader, who was the CEO of the company, but what he needs individually to develop himself to be better overall. And I'm, thought that that is a fantastic way of thinking pie chart your day. Right. And as a leader, if you have more responsibility and accountability, just think to yourself, how are you dividing up your day and what percentage of time are you dedicated to your team, your direct reports and that kind of thing. So I, I think for that manager, that's what I would say is like, you've got to architect a moat around the work so that you have the appropriate time to be intentional. with your team and what they need. Absolutely. Thank you for that. I'm curious. what we see a lot of times, or what I've seen a lot of times is that folks in LND, leaders in LND, they're really well known, they're really well respected within their organization, uh but they don't have a whole lot of outward visibility. And so as someone who speaks, writes, and leads at a pretty high level, I'm curious how you've thought about showing up publicly as a leader. That's a great question. You know, it's funny, we are sort of domain specialists in a way. And I think that's some of what leads us kind of into this filter bubble, if you will, of our own practice a lot of times. and, um, but the challenge with that is as business leaders, cause I would say if you're a learning leader and HR leader, you are leading the business in a lot of ways. Right. And I would say that, and I've said this before, I would say in some regard, we are unique because we span the enterprise and because people are all across the enterprise. are domain specialists in a way, but we must also have the acumen to be able to talk across the different functions of the business and speak in a language they understand. And you go into legal, you go into finance, you go into manufacturing or supply chain, whatever it may be, you kind of have to understand what the imperatives are for their business. And so I think it's really critically important for people in our practice to do kind of both. And so what I say in some regard is we are systems thinkers because we have to span the enterprise and we have to connect the dots across the enterprise because we have to look at the organization or we have to look at the enterprise as a system. And what we're going to be driving, especially going forward is we are the last generation of HR and L &D executives that will be focused only on a human workforce, right? And so as we move forward, we're going to be looking at the integration of intelligent machinery and AI into the workplace. And we're going to have to be focused on that collaboration between humans, you the human innovation part and the artificial intelligence part and the automation part and construct policies and processes and procedures, all these things, right, that make the employee experience what it will need to be both on the human side and on the artificial intelligence side. And so it becomes even more important that we uh are systems thinkers, but we need to do two things. We don't only connect the dots across the enterprise. In a lot of regard, we are generating some of the dots too, right? So we are domain specialists and we have to come up with the you know, an architect, the systems to amplify humanity in the work and to connect all of the uh intelligence that's artificial across the work and help people be able to work with intelligent machinery and artificial intelligence and all that. So we have to generate those dots, but we also have to connect the dots across. it's, it's going to be even a more complex practice in a lot of ways, but I do think it's important to, for us in HRNL &D to get out of our practice and experience other specialties and And even go into other verticals and know what they're, mean, I do that a lot. Like I'll go to marketing conferences and, I do think there's a direct alignment between what we do in L and D and marketing anyway. And, and even get out into other practices, you know, design thinking practices and stuff like that. Get out of our own bubble so that we can see what's going on. The bottom line is every company needs to be a learning company now, regardless of your size, your scale. any of that, you are a learning company first, and then you have a specialty. And so I think we need to go see how others are doing what they do and learn and innovate from that and bring it back into what we do. I love that so much because it is so easy for us to get caught up in our own little bubble uh while there's so much innovation happening in every other sector and every other industry. uh And there's almost always something we can learn from that for sure. So moving towards closing out our conversation, uh my last big question for you today is what advice would you offer to L &D professionals who want to make a bigger impact inside their organization or even beyond it? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, it's funny. I was told once by a boss that I could be much more impactful if when I walk into a meeting, I don't go in thinking I already have all the answers. uh, cause she observed me in a few situations, right? And she encouraged me to listen more, ask more questions. And as a leader to speak last in the meeting, would encourage everyone who leads a team. to not be the one speaking first or most of the time. And that way you won't shut down ideas and thoughts and brainstorming and innovation that others may bring in that meeting. But she also encouraged me to run to the big problems, right? Try to solve the big problems, but you do that, she said, by shrinking those problems and becoming real clear on what you want to achieve and what you need your team. achieve. And so the other thing I'd recommend for L &D leaders, you know, wanting to make a bigger impact is individually for you to identify what your back pocket skill is. And I learned this, don't laugh, but I learned this from a masterclass that I watched from Indra Newey, the former chairman and CEO of Pepsi. And she said as a woman with a very thick accent, she started on the ground floor of Pepsi and was able to move her way up and navigate through the labyrinth of the PepsiCo system to become its chairman and CEO. And she did that based on her back pocket skill, which her back pocket skills she identified was to take complexity and break it down and simplify it and be able to bring clarity to it when uh when creating strategy. And so her key point was identify what your back pocket skill is. And that is what makes you uniquely you that differentiates you from the others around you. And that is easy for someone to recognize as you are the go-to for this, right? Whatever it may be. And so what is your superpower? It's good for you to know that and to leverage it in the right contexts, right? And It will help you become more noticed, more visible, but more importantly, more effective. so would, I would say that's what I would, the advice I would give to any HR L and D or any leader in general, right? Is just to recognize what that back pocket skill is that you have that is uniquely yours. Yeah, and you're really your unique value proposition as a way to think about it. That's, know, I always took prior to getting into L and D uh backgrounds in marketing. And that was always the big thing is you've got to figure out your unique value proposition and your niche. um And you figure out those two things, you're going to, you're going to be set. 100%. Brandon, thank you so much for this conversation today. I really enjoyed it and I'm sure our listeners have as well. So for people who want to stay connected and follow your work, where's the best place to find you online? best place honestly is LinkedIn. have a lot of conversation there. I love the dialogue back and forth. It gets a little bit like, you know, we go deep on some of the nuances of what we do in L and D, but, uh, I love having conversation there. I do have, if you have chat GPT, if any of your listeners have chat GPT, I do have my own chat bot there where you can talk to me 24 seven, my chat bot answers. So if you need a response from me right away, you can go search chat GPT and you'll find my digital twin ready to talk to you at any point, any hour during the day. That's excellent. Talk about a way to scale yourself. mean, that's... What could be more effective than that? We're all gonna have these physical twins. Like I don't even know why we're not born now. Like kids being born now should just have their agent with them, be with them the rest of their lives, right? So. Well, thank you so much again. I really appreciate it. uh Conversations like this are really exactly why I started this show. uh Really to spotlight those leaders like you who are shaping what's next. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss what's coming next. And you can connect with me on LinkedIn as well. I'll put the link to my profile as well as Brandon's down in the show notes. And if today's conversation got you thinking at all about how your own presence online could better reflect your own expertise and your own leadership, definitely reach out to me because that's something I certainly help L &D leaders with. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time on Catalysts.